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Academics Can I do so bad during thesis defense that I fail? ( self.GradSchool )

submitted 4 months ago by NK_Grimm

I'm confidant of the manuscript and in my knowledge of its subjects... but coming to words with it and to Q&A in the defense does not sound so trivial anymore. What I can't answer any question the jury sends me? What if I stumble in my speech or get a brain fog and forget what to say?

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[–] apenature MSc(Medicine) 120 points 121 points 122 points 4 months ago   (10 children)

Theoretically yes. But no committee will approve you to defend if you weren't ready. You failing looks bad on them, they're not uninterested parties. You're ready. Just breathe.

[–] pizza_the_mutt 19 points 20 points 21 points 4 months ago   (7 children)

I knew one student who insisted on defending even when their committee advised they weren't ready. They failed. So yeah, don't do that.

[–] apenature MSc(Medicine) 12 points 13 points 14 points 4 months ago   (6 children)

We have a post doc in my research group that submitted and defended her PhD against her supervisor's wishes, she passed. At my school, the supervisors do not mark you at all. It goes to an independent committee assembled by the supervisor. But they can't communicate, it's all independent.

[–] pizza_the_mutt 5 points 6 points 7 points 4 months ago   (5 children)

I could see that as a protection against toxic supervisor relationships? Maybe a good idea. We didn't have that.

[–] apenature MSc(Medicine) 5 points 6 points 7 points 4 months ago   (4 children)

100% the idea. Also, I don't know who my examiners are, even after grading. Everything is marked blind for graduate degrees, no one knows who the others are. My university grades harshly, e.g. a 70 is a B+/A-, but very fairly and very justifiable. I'm a convert compared to the US system. The person marking you has absolute influence on you, it makes potentially bad science. At my university, you actually earn what you achieve. And your supervisor has no incentive to do anything but help you grow and learn. For my faculty the committee must have two international examiners; at least one external to the university. We prioritize good research.

[–] astronomicarific 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (3 children)

I'm a little confused, would a 70 being a B+/A- not be more lax grading? Because you have more room for error ehile still achieving a higher grade

[–] apenature MSc(Medicine) 2 points 3 points 4 points 4 months ago *   (2 children)

It is confusing. It's kind of like the French system. You start at zero, not 100 and few people get A's. It's reserved for actually outstanding work, demonstrating exceptional mastery.

A person scoring above 75 is rare.

Below 50 is a fail. 50-60 is a C, "Pass/Good," Third Class Degree. 60-70 is a B, "Good/Above Average," Second Class, lower. 70-75 B+/A-, "Above Average/Outstanding," Second Class, upper. Above 75 A+. "Outstanding/Excellent," First Class.

[–] astronomicarific 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (1 child)

That's awesome!! Thank you for explaining :)

[–] apenature MSc(Medicine) 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

No problem!

[–] BlueAnalystTherapist 3 points 4 points 5 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

It does happen more than you’d think.

[–] [deleted] 78 points 79 points 80 points 4 months ago   (3 children)

I have been a professor for 25 years, I have been in probably 100 defenses, and only seen it go down in one very odd case.

If your advisor clears it to go to defense, you will pass. You might get asked for revisions, but you will pass.

BTW: if you freeze, the committee usually answers for you. They know how you feel and they are sympathetic.

[–] EccentricGoblin 23 points 24 points 25 points 4 months ago   (1 child)

Out of curiosity, what happened in that one very odd case? (No pressure to share if there’s too many identifying details or something)

[–] [deleted] 65 points 66 points 67 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

The student went to the field to do research, but came back with literally no data. No interviews, no observations, no surveys, nothing. She later tried to write a thesis on the basis of some odd bits she had pulled together: a photograph of a monument, the table of contents of a textbook, a poster....but there wasn't enough there to write about.

Her advisor told her over and over she could not go to defense with what she had written, which was basically book reports on other people's work. She failed the defense three times because she refused to do anything the committee asked her to do (we were trying to pass her!). She dropped out, no idea what happened after that.

[–] Milch_und_Paprika 12 points 13 points 14 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

My old PI has similarly been at it for like 40+ years. He said that in all that time, he’s only heard of one single student failing, and not even in his department.

[–] Russel_Jimmies95 31 points 32 points 33 points 4 months ago *   (0 children)

Thesis defence is just a lil hazing at this point. They’re gonna prod you a bit on your work and ask you why you did some things. They’ll likely give you minor revisions if you weren’t the top like 1% of PhD students (worst case you actually do suck and get major revisions, but that’s kinda more on your advisor if anything). Have faith in the work you did, trust your instincts, trust the fact that three people much more successful at this than you looked at this and went “yeah, fuck it, that’ll fly” and treat yourself to a nice hard drink after you pass :)

Edit: Also, I don’t have a paper to support this, but I recall reading that a lot of profs have an interest in passing eachothers’ students because if you nuke one prof’s student, you can be sure as shit they’re gonna nuke yours at the next chance. The odds are really stacked in your favour. You can’t fail unless someone set you up to fail.

Edit 2: and if I can make a quick “fuck academia” rant, just remember that outside in the real world, no one cares. Eventually you will get your PhD, realize this is all bullshit anyway when you get into real work or do your post-doc, and realize you worried about nothing.

[–] drudanae_high 7 points 8 points 9 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

I actually talked about this specific problem to my supervisor.

He basically said, unless you have literally nothing of importance to say, you're good. The only times he saw people fail was when they were choked up and stuck talking about an introduction to their research for the whole duration, not even getting to the data portion.

Just don't get stuck, as long as you talk about your research as a whole and show you put in the work, answer some questions you're good. That's really all it takes.

[–] pizza_the_mutt 6 points 7 points 8 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

An anecdote that might help. In my defense a committee member asked me what my thoughts were of a certain researcher's work in our area. I had NEVER heard of this person, or their work. I had to admit that, and assumed this was a big black mark. I later learned the committee member had a paper rejected the week before, and a negative reviewer had asked why the mystery researcher hadn't been cited. The committee member had never heard of them either. They were just curious if I had.

The point being, even if something alarming and distressing happens during the defense, it isn't necessarily going to sink you, or even be a bad thing. So stay level headed and continue doing the best you can.

[–] LifeHappenzEvryMomnt 4 points 5 points 6 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

I misidentified my own research plant in my slides during by defense. I did not fail. Everyone understood the stress and hade reviewed my written work, had me in class and knew I knew my stuff.

[–] squirrel8296 3 points 4 points 5 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

Theoretically, yes. In practice, no. They would not approve you to defend if they thought you weren't ready. It would have to be an exceptional circumstance, more than just brain fog or stumbling.

[–] benoitkesley MA '24 2 points 3 points 4 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

My defense is in a month and I'm having the same feelings aha.

But I've been told the same things as many people in the comments below. You won't be approved to defend if your thesis isn't good enough to defend. And even if you defend and everything goes amazing, you still might have to make revisions afterwards.

I've also been told the defense is just tradition. As someone mentioned before, it's practically hazing. My supervisor said one of the questions I could be asked is why I picked the topic-- and I won't be surprised if he's the one to ask me. One of my undergrad profs said one of her committee members just approved her thesis without even reading it cause they knew it was good to go. My supervisor said getting my thesis approved for my upcoming defense shouldn't be a problem and I'm not even done the thesis yet (lol).

All in all, you'll do great OP!

[–] Mattyrightnow 1 point 2 points 3 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

I’m addition to what everyone’s said - you know a lot more than you think!!! I’m going to defend this year, and I’ve watched a bunch of other students defend, and I’ve had discussions abt my research with my whole committee where I had to answer questions and without even knowing I had it in me it’s been easy to answer/when I saw my friends defend they did an amazing job despite these same exact fears. You know more than you think!!!

[–] Fardays 1 point 2 points 3 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

In the US, no. In the UK, absolutely yes.

[–] CampyUke98 1 point 2 points 3 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

My program doesn't really do theses/defenses, but we have a large research project and recently spoke in front of a panel about it (pseudo-defense). We used chat gpt to come up with example defense questions and practice that way. I don't think we were really asked the exact questions, but it got us thinking and talking about our project in a different way than we were used to. Maybe give it a try? Practicing public speaking can be helpful!

[–] llikegiraffes MS, Civil Engineering 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

I was told if your advisor encourages you that you’re ready to defend, you’ll likely pass with corrections.

The people who failed at my university demanded a defense well before it was their time

[–] Arakkis54 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

Remember that you know more about your topic than anyone in the room, including your advisor. Also “I don’t know” is always a correct answer.

[–] Sea-Chain7394 0 points 1 point 2 points 4 months ago   (0 children)

I just did my defense i did practice but when I got to the end I couldn't remember anything I had said lol must have been on autopilot but still passed. Before I was so worried I would fail since basically none of my explanatory models really worked out leaving me with basically a descriptive study of the system. Thought all my work was trash and was really worried because publishing is a requirement of graduating. My committee told me my data set was incredibly unique and my methods are excellent. They let you sweat but don't want you to fail. Just take a breath if you need to pause to compose yourself you will do great I'm sure. Good luck. And think how good it will feel to be done

[+] Ok_Bookkeeper_3481 comment score below threshold -18 points -17 points -16 points 4 months ago   (1 child)

You are not graduating in linguistics, I hope? Because the word you are looking for is “confident”.

[–] alwayslate187 0 points 1 point 2 points 2 months ago   (0 children)

imo, That was most likely the fault of autocorrect. My experience is that when I type things it often changes what I've written to an entirely different word. The most annoying one is lets changed to let's. Not, I did not mean "let us", I meant "allows one to". It changes it every single time, and when I go back and correct it, when I re-read, sometimes it has been changed back. This can sometimes repeat multiple times. I have seen at least one other person make a similar comment about autocorrect changing a carefully chosen word to something different, and also inappropriate for the context.

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